Hello brothers and sisters,
Below is my reply to Brytni's comment
on my last post, Hell Part II.
Where do I read about a decision for
Christ? Let's start at the beginning of the book. First we must
establish that man has a free will. In Genesis 2:16-17 God gives man
his first choice, he tells him not to eat of the tree, if he does, he
will die. In chapter 3 man decides to eat of said tree, thus
exercising his free will.
Again we see in Deuteronomy 30:19 Moses
lays before the children of Israel the blessing and the curse and
tells them to Choose. If they did not have a free will why would he
tell them to choose?
Similarly Joshua in chapter 24, they
are told to choose who they will serve. Time and time again through
the old testament we see people given the choice of serving God or
the devil, life or death, so, in the old testament man clearly has a
free choice. If he did not God would not be calling Israel to choose
who they would serve, or calling them to return to him, not ordering,
but pleading with them to return
Let's have a look at the New Testament
now.
Matthew 9:13 Jesus came not call the
righteous but sinners to repentance. Why would he call if they had
no choice but to come?
Mark 2:17 repeats this
Read the Parable of the sower, the
people had to receive the word sown.
Mark 16:16, you must believe to be
saved. What does "believe" mean? You cannot believe
without choice. You have to make a choice to believe.
Ok, let me cut this short, and just
say, all over scripture, man has a free will to do as he pleases, he
can choose good or evil, God or Satan and so on.
Back to your question, well, sort of,
first let us look at the definition of believe. "Believe: To
accept something as true." Therefore, "That whosoever
believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so
loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For
God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not
condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he
hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And
this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men
loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For
every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the
light, lest his deeds should be reproved." John 3:15-20
And, further: "That if thou shalt
confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the
mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith,
Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no
difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all
is rich unto all the call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon
the name of the Lord shall be saved How then shall they call on him
in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him
of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a
preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is
written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of
peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all
obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our
report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God." Romans 10:9-17
These are just two of the many passages
on this, we must believe to be saved, and believing is a choice. To
believe you must accept it as truth, and to accept you must make a
choice, a decision.
Where does God offer salvation to the
wicked? What is your definition of the word wicked? Are not we all?
Let us see: Wicked: Evil. What does evil mean? Morally
reprehensible, sinful. Think of the scripture: "The heart is
deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Jeremiah 17:9. Think on this: The Lord is not slack concerning his
promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to
us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come
to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 Notice it says any? God came to call
sinners, in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not some sinners, all
sinners. In the book of Revelation, during the great tribulation God
once again calls all men to serve him. All men, not just some, not
just the non-wicked, but all men. All have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God. Romans 3:23. If all have sinned, and God came
to call sinners, then, He must be offering salvation to all because
he is calling sinners.
From your post, I understand that you
believe that Christians are the Elect, and all the rest are un-Elect?
You come from the position that God Elected certain people to be
saved, and the rest are damned, and that I assume also, that you
believe that we are sinful by nature. If I am correct in all of
this, please answer this one question; What is Justice? We both
agree that God is a God of Justice. Let me define the word, Justice:
The quality of being just, impartial, or fair. Okay, let us look
closely at election...
Right off we have a problem, God is
just, but, election is not. You see, if we humans are sinful by
nature, that is, we have no free will, we sin just as we breath, we
have to, because it is part of us, how can God if he is just, send
anyone to hell seeing he created us this way? How can he judge us
for sin we had no choice but to commit? Let us look at it from
another angle. All have sinned, that is made very clear in scripture
so, that means that God chose a certain group of sinners arbitrarily,
and they go to heaven, everyone else to hell. Is that just? I mean
really? We all sin, but some of us for no reason other than God
deciding it go to heaven, and everyone else, just as bad as us, are
all going to hell. Um, we have a problem of justice here. It is
like four gangsters are brought before a judge for murder, all four
are totally guilty, but the judge chooses to save one of them and
sends the rest off to execution. Would that be just? How can he
punish some of them, and let one go? They are all guilty. Same with
God, it would not be just for him to punish some, and have mercy on
some would it? If God is just, election as I believe you see it
cannot work, it would violate the very nature of God, it violates
scripture which repeatedly speaks of God being righteous and just,
long-suffering and merciful. Would you call it merciful for God to
give mercy to a certain group of people and not even give the chance
to everyone else?
I have a question to ask you: Why did
Jesus die? If God chose who should be saved from the foundation of
the world, why need Christ die since they were already chosen?
I hope that in this post you will see
that, God calls all to repentance, since all are sinners and he calls
the sinners. That, salvation is a choice, not forced, we choose to
believe, or not. That election is unjust, unfair, and unrighteous,
and if God is Just and Righteous, then election could not happen.
This post may come across as harsh, I don't mean it so, I just mean
to speak the truth, if I am wrong, show me how from scripture, I am
open and listening.
On closing, I implore all of my readers
this day, please read your Bible. Read it carefully from beginning
to end, please, read it without any bias from doctrines of men, just
read what it says, and believe it, don't just listen to men tell you
what it says, check on them, check every doctrine in the light of all
of scripture, please don't for anything base your doctrines on just
part of scripture, don't just use a few verses use the whole of
scripture.
God Bless,
Flame of Jah
11 comments:
Election!!!! :)
There was supposed to be a post lol, sorry 'bout that got it fixed now.
Brother,
1. Genesis 2:16-17 is not talking about “making a decision for Jesus”. Also, I believe that our omniscient, wise, Creator knew that man, by his own wicked heart would sin. Thus they would need a savior, so He chose some to save and those He purposed to save He did. John 6:38-40 (more on that later) Do you believe in God’s omnipotence and Sovereignty?
2. Deuteronomy 30:19 is not talking about a “decision for Christ”. It is declaring God’s conditions for life and blessing in Canaan. Israel was God’s Elect and Chosen people. They did not choose Him. Deuteronomy 7:6 Yes, they, just like we Christians today, can choose to obey Him or disobey. Those who disobey are not assured of their salvation. II Peter 1:10-11
3. Same goes for Joshua 24.
4. We must compare Scripture with Scripture. There are NO contradictions in the Bible. We also must look at context. Jesus Christ told those Pharisees in Matthew 9 and Mark 2 that He didn’t come to call the righteous but the sinners to repentance… Were the Pharisees righteous so they did not need Salvation? Did they not sin? Of course they did! The Bible says that anyone who says He hasn’t sinned is a liar. Okay, so the key word in both texts is REPENTANCE. The publicans and sinners that Jesus was calling repented. He is also the Lord Himself. He is Very God. He knows whom He elected and said that He would lose none of them. Did He lie? Is He weak or unable to accomplish what He set out to do? No! He will lose, none of HIS. Also, I will remind you of the verse that I mentioned before, John 1:12 says that we are not born of the will of man… Is God a liar? He said He hates some. Is He a liar?
5. I am not sure where you got your definition of believe, but here it is from the dictionary:
be•lieve
a. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so
b. to have confidence or faith in the truth of a positive assertion, story, etc.; give credence to.
c. to have confidence in the assertions of a person.
d. to have a conviction that a person or thing is, has been, or will be engaged in a given action or involved in a given situation
e. to be persuaded of the truth or existence of.
f. to have faith in the reliability, honesty, benevolence, etc., of
I do have confidence that Christ died for me! I believe it! But that is not because I chose Him; it is because He chose me! If He had not loved me, I could not and would not have loved Him. ! John 4:19 Are you more powerful than God Himself?
6. John 3:15-20 are such abused versse that it would be too lengthy to try to comment about them entirely here. I will simply say, the text is not structured conditionally with a future conditional (If . . . then). The verses primarily state the Son of Man’s death to secure eternal life for the elect. And secondarily state that the evidence (John’s purpose in writing) is faith. Also, If God loved the whole human race without exception so very, very, very much . . . Why couldn’t or wouldn’t He save very many of them? He is the Savior, isn’t He? How do babies, the mentally handicapped, and the heathen get to heaven without a chance to believe? How did people get saved in the Old Testament before they could believe on Him? Why will He profess He never knew most men in any affectionate way? Why has He kept the gospel from most men in the history of the world? What good is His love for the “whole world” with most men going to hell? It isn’t a very meaningful love. What is the difference between the saved and the lost? Did they save themselves? Are those in hell separated from His love, which He promised could never happen? Can any human ever go to hell, since Jesus promised He would lose not one? Is His love better than that of a whore, who offers it to strangers without any loyalty? How should men love their wives as Christ? By loving all women equally including them? Also, who was the Bible written to? The unregenerate or His children?
7. Romans 10:9-13 Descriptions of evidence do not offer eternal life by conditions. To do so would be to say that you are saved by works. Do you believe that your works save you or Jesus Christ? Again, compare Scripture with Scripture. Just because you “take His name into your mouth”, does not mean you are His. Matthew 7:21 or Matthew 25 that we already mentioned in the other post. Also, we are told, that you cannot say that Jesus is Lord unless it is by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Again, not by our decision, but His.
8. You have assumed correctly. I believe that the LORD elected some to be vessels of honor and some of dishonor. Romans 9 I believe that God hates some and loves others. Psalm 5:4-6 I believe that the LORD gave His Son Jesus Christ the power to save as many as He gave Him. John 17:2
9. To answer your question, Justice means: the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness. So, no. if God chose some of us and sent others to hell, He would be unjust. It would only be fair to send us all to hell and save none. However, He is not unjust but sacrificed His Son for those He chose to save. Those men and women are covered in His righteousness. It would be unfair of Him to make His Son go through that agony for some who would reject Him! He is far more just than you or I can even comprehend! How dare anyone call Him otherwise for deciding to throw wicked, God hating men, in hell!
10. Asking the question “is that just for God to arbitrarily choose some over others” is shameful. God is God. He is JEHOVAH! How dare anyone say anything against His will! Paul wrote about you! He knew your heart! He knew it’s rebellion against the LORD!
“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:20-24
11. You ask, “Why need Christ die if God elects some?” You told me yourself… It would be unfair to save us because of our sins! BUT>>>He, the Just Judge, had those sins paid for and covered by the Blood of the Lamb! If He had not killed His Son we too would be damned. You belittle the Cross and the power of Christ’s Blood spilt! You say that He cannot do what He said He would, that He is too wimpy to save those who He wants to. No one deserves a spec of a tiny chance to go to heaven. We should be on our knees thanking God for the mercy He gave! Not replying against Him because of the mercy we think He should have given! It is wicked rebellion to ask God if He is fair! We live in a generation of rebellion. One tainted with the thought that everything is “unfair”. Let us not be spotted by that world.
12. You told your readers to read the Bible without any bias from doctrines of men… You read it and do the same. Do not take your favorite sound bite verses from the word of God that you want to base this doctrine on because you think that God, The Almighty, All Glorious, Just, Jealous, Incomprehensible, Independent, Merciful, Benevolent, Omnipotent and only Wise God, is unfair, and twist them to say so! God is perfect! Holy! and Righteous! He will soon come to judge the quick and the dead… Let us be found faithful to the true Word that He wrote.
Hello Brytni,
I am working on a full reply, and hopefully will get it up soon. Here is a verse I'd like you to consider till then:
I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Flame of Jah
P.S. I believe that there are some very serious misunderstandings between us, I'll do my best to straighten those out in my next post.
I love that verse! It is stating that He is the propitiation for all the sins of all the elect throughout the whole world! It too, like John 3:16, is one of the most misused, abused verses in the Bible!
Consider:
World: The inhabitants of the earth, or a section of them. (Oxford English Dictionary.)
a. The Pharisees said the world had gone after Him, though less than 1% of the nation (12:19).
b. Jesus said the world could not receive the Spirit, though His disciples surely would (14:17).
c. The disciples were not of the world (15:19). If He died for the world, His disciples are lost.
d. The world would rejoice when he died (16:20). If He died for this world, his mother is lost.
e. The disciples were not of the world (17:14). If He died for the world, His disciples are lost.
H. How many worlds can we find in John 17? The common notion is ridiculous (17:21,23).
f. Did Jesus propitiate the sins of the whole world? (I Jn 2:2) Or is it yet in wickedness? (5:19)
g. Is Jesus the Saviour of the world?(I Jn 4:14) Or is the world deceived by Satan? (Rev 12:9)
h. We read the statement and understand the “world” to fit its context as a section of mankind.
i. Is there any place in the Bible (287 occurrences) where “world” means every human soul?
Brother, I used to believe what you do. You are not going to convince me. If you would like to continue, just let me know. I just want to be completely honest with you :) Thank you!
Your sister,
Brytni
Brytni, I'm totally confused, why would the disciples be lost if Jesus died for the whole world?
:) Sorry for the confusion... Jesus said that the disciples were "not of the world". I was simply showing how world does not always mean every soul with out exception. Again, sorry for the confusion. Also, all of the references by themselves are from the book of John. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.
My full reply is coming soon.
Flame
Ok, it will be in a few days, working on final edits, and such, it is four pages now,
God Bless,
Flame
I am neither Calvinist nor Non Calvinist- I am learning. However, I did just read a book that was rather helpful. It is called The Truth of the Cross by R C Sproul, who is Calvinist. He has a chapter about the elect and the Cross. If you want to, you can request the book for free in PDF form if you would review it. The thoughts on the Cross are wonderful even if you are not a Calvinist. You can request it right here, http://www.ligonier.org/reformation-trust/blog-for-book/ and I reviewed it right here http://foundachristianbyhisgrace.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-cross.html, Growing in Grace, Faith
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